Hullo, Matt,

I have a couple of questions about Primal Magic, and figured that I would address them to you as the guru of the magic system for DESOLATION.

One of my players is playing a Primal spell caster. How do some of these effects work?

For example, let's say that the player characters wants to grow natural weapons, such as the bite of the wolf or whatever? How would you roll the spell first of all, and finally what would be the game mechanic result of the spell?

Or if a player wanted to mimic the Speed of the Wolf.... How would you handle this, both in terms of rolling the spell and determining the effect of the spell?

I need a few more guidelines on how to handle some stuff like this.

Thanks.

I have some thoughts on this, but I'll wait to see how Matt weighs in on this.

Besides, I need to dig out the rulebook and reacquaint myself with the specifics of magic to make sure I'm thinking it out correctly.

Hullo, Nestor,



Looking forward to your thoughts on this, Nestor.

The whole thing is really odd for me, because while I love free-form magic systems and all (the one in Arrowflight from Deep7 Games was the first one I had real experience with, other than the one from Ars Magica way back when), this is the sort of thing that arises in free-form systems where spells are not defined in detail and all. One of their real weaknesses, to some extent, even if I absolutely adore them. Anyway, I do hope that Matt chimes in on this soon.

(Btw, based on your icon here, I bet you're looking forward to Survivors, huh?

Hey guys,

In regards to the two specific primalism questions, below are my thoughts:

1. To grow claws of fangs would be an Average spell (page 144) for a primalist, although if the character already keeps his teeth filed or has long nails, I could be persuaded to drop it to an Easy. If the spell succeeds, they gain a 1L attack using the Brawl skill. I would give a +1 damage bonus for each extra success. I envision these as being physical transformations... where the character's body grows these weapons... teeth lengthen, nails grow, etc... With that being said, I could see some GMs wanting these to be ghostly/magical versions of the natural weapons that overlay the character. Whichever way you go, I think that natural weapon should be obvious, not just a bonus to damage.


2. When trying to emulate an animal's ability to improve an attribute or skill, just use the table at the bottom of page 133. As a GM it is up to you to decide if the totem would grant such an ability. For example, I would let a spider-totem primalist increase their Stealth skill or Agility, but not their Singing skill or Health. As for the wolf speed... improving a secondary attribute (Move) by +1 is an Average check, with each additional success giving another +1. In terms of outward appearance, I wouldn't force a physical transformation, although I would describe the character as feeling infused with the speed of the wolf and have his running gait more lupine and hunched.

Overall, I picture primalism as a more "internalized" magic with few outward signs other than the transformation and behavior of the character. I don't see giant glowing versions of the totem surrounding or infusing the character - like the old Bravestar cartoon or Vixen (DC comics) or Animal Man (DC comics) sometimes do.

Does this help?

Hullo, Matt,



Yep, one of the players wanted to do something along the lines of "spirit claws", where the totem animal grants the character an effect of basically raking the target with claws at a distance. Personally, while I think this is acceptable, I figured it would have a Dif of 3 or so, but I also thought the spell would be useful for Animists (as they deal with the spirit world, too).



That's pretty much how I envisioned the situation, too.

Some would argue that it's better to augment the Attribute, rather than the Skill, as the addition to the Attribute would manifest in the Skill as well, would it not?



Yep, this helps remarkably well. Your answers to this were pretty much as I saw them as well, although I hadn't thought in terms of the Bravestar stuff, but I did equate it somewhat with the two DC Comics characters!

Thanks, Matt!

Matt pretty much covered what I was thinking of, although I originally envisioned an Easy version of the claws spell would be converting one's unarmed attack from nonlethal to lethal (so the type of damage changes as opposed to the amount).

Other than that, we're spot on. If I was feeling inspired, I'd potentially add thematic flavor to the spell, like perhaps hearing the ghostly echo of a wolf's howl when invoking a wolf ability. But that's strictly SFX.

Edit: Oh, and yes, Survivors is definitely on my GenCon shopping list. Waja want! Waja get!

Hullo, Nestor,



Interesting point, Nestor, but I suspect that isince the base of the Bite would be 1L (and Claws would likely be 2L), the conversion from non-lethal to lethal isn't necessary. That said, forgotten in all this is that it makes sense if the character takes the Brawl skill to begin with, otherwise they would have to make the attack using the unskilled penalty.



Yep, definitely SFX. Of course, if one wanted to make that part of the spell to give it an intimidation factor or even the necessity of the target making a Courage check, well, that would just increase the Difficulty. (Oh, dear, I hope the player in question isn't reading this post...)



Same here...problem is, I'm not going to GenCon!!! <sob, sob>

I'm glad it synched up with how you guys imagined it... it certainly helped my crystallize my thought on the primalists. We will have a primalist PC in the Frontier Justice game... the spider mongrel I posted sooooo long ago.

Matt

Hullo, Matt,



Well, I have to admit that it took me a while to get used to the DESOLATION magic system (especially after the complicated nature of the one for HEX and the terrible (imo) magic system of Arrowflight), given that free-form systems of magic seem to be looser in defining effects and terms than magic systems are almost ritualized. The fact that you provided a means of creating new spells on the fly in the book, the examples of the modifiers and their costs in terms of Difficulty, and the spell examples for each Tradition certainly made it easier to work with magic in the game. The Primal Magic stuff just twisted me up in a few head knots for a bit, but I'm glad that it's all aired out and stuff.

No, not the spider mage Mongrel!!! Dammit, you *know* I'm not gonna be at GenCon!! This is just to tease me terribly, isn't it?

Hullo, folks, Matt,

Still on the topic of Primal Magic, an interesting question comes to mind.

What is the essential difference between the spells Strength of the Bear and Strength of the Wolf, for example, on the part of two Shamans? Primarily in a game mechanics difference and what it does for the Shamans in question?

I am assuming both shamans simply want to increase their STR attribute - which would use the table Increase/Decrease Attribute on page 133 to determine the success/difficulties.

I personally would make the Strength of the Bear spell 1 difficulty lower to cast because strength is a core aspect of a bear that comes to my mind when I think of them.

Stength of the Wolf would require a bit of explaination from the player, as I (personally) do not see wolves as 'strong' in terms of physical might. I see them as hardy and enduring, perhaps wiley and cunning, but a player with enough conviction would get away with it.

So in my totally optional rule world, this is how I see it:
Core Attributes of Animal --> -1 to spell difficulty
Attribute of Animal --> base difficulty

As for what it does... I would have the bear shaman's physique hulk out a bit and the wolf shaman to become more lean and angular (fat melting away) so his muscles are more noticable.

Hullo, Matt,



Yeah, my bad, in terms of how I set this example up. The idea I was trying to get at is this. Let's say the two Shamans have Strength 2, and all the derived Attributes and so forth that go along with it. The large bear has a Strength of 5, and let's say for argument's sake the wolf has a Strength of 4 (they don't, they have a Strength of 3, but let's say...) Forgettinag about other factors and Difficulties and so forth, what would be the effect of the spell if the two Shamans each received 2 successes above the Difficulty number? The fact of the matter is that the two spells don't seem to be any differrent in terms of their effects, regardless of the Strengths of each of the totem animals, per se.



Okay, that's pretty good. And makes sense to me.



As noted a paragraph or two above, I phrased it badly. I meant game mechanic-wise, what is the game effect? The physical manifestations that you provide above seemed to me common sense, but the game mechanic doesn't seem to, in that both characters would appear to gain the same benefit from the spell, despite the difference in the totem animals.

Ahhh... I think I understand what you were asking...

I don't look at the actual attributes of the totem animals when determing the outcome of the spell. For balance's sake, a Diff 3 spell has to give a +1 to an attribute, regardless of what kind of animal is being emulated.

By reducing the difficulty for mimicing a core attibute of a totem (as mentioned in a previous post), you rewarding the caster enough, IMO.

Part of this decision was also for people who have small/tiny totems. An ant shaman should be able to mimic the strength of his totem (as they are famous for being able to lift a alot compared to their size/weight).

Hullo, Matt,



Ah, okay... For some reason, I started thinking that the spells had to give the character a Strength (as in the examples above) proportional to the animal totem in question, but of course, in retrospect, that causes the character to become completely unbalancing to the game and the situation at any given moment. Doing it this way provides some limits, balances things out, and still makes magic pretty effective to a large extent. The reduction of the Dificulty for mimicing a core Attribute makes a lot of sense, and that works well for me, too.



Hadn't thought of it quite from that pov, Matt, but you've absolutely right. Must remember to create an NPC ant shaman at some point!