Something I noticed reading through the Magic chapter...

Using Menelaris as an example ('cause he deserves getting picked on ), assume he decides to use his Elemental magic to put the hurt on someone. The Base Difficulty is 2, correct? Let's further assume that the elf wants a more-than-average chance of firing the spell off, so he uses 5 dice worth of magic.

He throws the dice, and let's say he gets three successes. That's two Burn and a total of 6 dice of damage (Base Difficulty plus Attribute plus extra successes, or 2 + 3 + 1) for his trouble.

So, considering he already can do 6 dice with his dagger and 7 dice with his hand axe, why in the names of the Two Above would he use his magic at all? Keep in mind, the numbers I used are all based on the averages, which means they're the likeliest result. Sure, he could put more dice into the roll and hope to get more successes, but at the very real risk of getting more Burn.

I'm just wondering if I'm reading the rules right and magic is that ineffective. If so, spellslingers are even more screwed than I originally thought.

Hullo, Nestor,

You make an excellent point in the post about Menelaris (geez, will that elf ever get any respect? ), but forgot about one thing...

DESOLATION, page 135, "Roll the Dice", explicitly says that Magic rolls can never Take the Average because of the instabiility of the Weave, so he can't Take the Average when working out the odds on this.

However, if taken in a general context, the question becomes: Why would any character in the world of DESOLATION ever use magic at all? I can't honestly say I have a good answer to that... and yes, I know that wasn't the point of the question at all. I'll leave this one to the game designers, thanks very much.

Oh, I know you can't take the average with Magic. I may be the Once & Future Newb, but I'm not entirely dim.

But, because of the slight bell curve nature of the rolls, the average value is the one most likely to occur, which is why I used it for my example.

I'll have to see if I can browbeat some folks around here to try some runs of Desolation, so I can better work out the feel of the game.

Hullo, Nestor,



Hey, mate, after spending part of the week with you down in Indy, I've learned first-hand that you are not dim. Your lightbulb is constantly going, mate, and enlivens the lives of those who see some of its light. (Goddess, but that sounds sappy, doesn't it?) Besides, you may be a newb to DESOLATION, but you're not a newb to Ubiquity. So I tend to value a lot of what you have to say in that regard.



Okay, I can dig that...



Sounds like an excellent plan to me, my friend. The more folks running and playing DESOLATION, the better!

Well, taking into account 'the average roll' for magic versus 'the average' for his weapons, I begin to see a point.

He is throwing 6 or 7 dice for those weapon attacks, which will only net him 3 successes on average. This isn't likely to put down your average opponent. On the other hand, he just did 6 damage using only 5 magic dice and taking only 2 burn in response, which will heal in an hour of rest as opposed to the days it would take to heal lethal from a return attack. This is, of course, assuming I am reading correctly in my interpretation that the damage done from that spell is not rolled as damage, but is the actual damage done to the target which must then be resisted appropriately.

Compared to his average knife or axe attack, and the painful thwacking that would likely follow since he's all up in the melee at that point, I think the trade-off is pretty good. Still, pulling out the magical guns like that is not something a spell-slinger should make a habit of when a mundane option will work.

A question I would ask is why any magic user wouldn't pick up the talents to deal with burn ASAP. It seems like going the magic route would be a difficult road without that safety net. Seems the poor elf didn't have the points to spare. More's the pity.

Why use magic for damage?

Our thoughts were that a spell caster should be able to deal (about) the same amount of damage as a heavy-duty fighter with an average spell check. As a primary attack, it is still their best option for damage, since the spell caster won't typically have the levels of melee skill (or the stats) to perform such a powerful attack.

Also, to be honest, we didn't want spell casters to be cannons. If a spell caster could just unload uber-damage spells with average difficulties, it would reduce the need to use their spells more creatively. We wanted spell casters to look at other options first.

There's also the other nifty benefits, like: they can affect multiple people/large areas with more successes, they can affect otherwise inaccessible people (like those standing on top of buildings, etc.), they don't need equipment/weapons, some damage ignores armor, they can choose to unload all their magic skill into an uber-blast, etc...

At the end of the day, if I had the choice between swinging my axe and dealing an average of 4 damage or casting a spell dealing an average of 5 damage - I would swing the axe - no question. But I love having magic for other things that no mere mortal can do...

Understood, but my example doesn't seem to support that, unless you assume the average spellcaster is going to risk Burning themselves to unconsciousness by using the full dice pool to cast the spell.

Heck, if Menelaris had learned Archery instead of Melee (a classic archetype for elves), he could consistently do better damage at range with a bow than he could with his magic.



And that better answers my question; the numbers are that way by design, not accident. Cool.

For the record, I like the concept too. The edge with magic lies not in its power but in its versatility.

I have no problem with it; I just want to make sure I understand it correctly.

Why? Because I want to make sure to explain the situation accurately to any incoming players. Nothing is a greater turn-off to a player than expecting a certain level of ability in their character and then finding out it's less than first perceived.

Oh, and on a related topic, does the player have to declare any additional effects for extra successes before he rolls the dice? For example, Menelaris decides to light up a troublesome mongrel and, to everyone's surprise, gets four successes on his roll. Can he then say that the fireball has spread and affected the mongrel's buddy standing next to him, or would he have needed to declare the area of effect ahead of time?

And finally, I'm suddenly inspired to write up an elf with Archery and Magic. Cast a spell to power up an arrow then shoot it. Explosive arrows, anyone?

If extra successes are rolled, the player should be able to make the decision on those extra successes are utilized (within reason). His first choice is to use those successes to reduce damage. If he doesn't need to reduce damage (or chooses not to) it is up to him and the GM to determine how the spell is enhanced. It should be a collaborative effort with the player taking the lead.

In the example you have above - I wouldn't hestitate to allow him to make the flame large enough to engulf a second person AND cause extra damage (since there are two extra successes). It makes perfect sense and is a logical extension of the spell. By and large, such things are easy to recognize and will quickly come into the player's mind.

I get leery when the player starts to add new spell effects, but if the extra successes are there and it makes sense and it drives the story forward, there's no system reason to disallow it. Just be careful that players don't start bogging down the game by trying to think of cool "add-ons" to their spells.

For example:
Trying to make the fire glow brighter and maybe blind some people - makes sense, I'd allow it.
Having the fire pour out black smoke that fills the room - a bit much, not in the original intent.
Having the fire catch equipment on fire - sure, seems logical
Having the fire turn solid and trap the person - too much

But at the end of the day, it's your call as the GM and how you want the story (and magic) to flow.

Your example leads to doing 6 damage using 5 magic dice and taking only 2 Burn versus doing 3 damage using the weapons (considering the average roll on both counts). So even if he were to throw 8 dice for a bow attack, given the archery option, he would still only average 4 damage. Using 8 dice on a magic roll would generally result in 7 (2 + 3 + 2) damage. The magic attack provides a higher potential damage for the elf, but only at the risk of a bad roll and some Burn. I'd still opt for the faster healing Burn over the lethal if I was facing a tougher opponent.

Ah! Enlightenment!

The calculation for spell damage defines how many Wounds the spell causes, not dice!

The scales have fallen from my eyes! Hallelujah! Thank you, brother, for guiding this unworthy one to the light!

Exactly.

Just as an aside, this made me recall a spell suggested by someone playing Menelaris at one of our quick booth battles at Gen Con. Krek's player was rolling badly and his arrows kept flying wide. Menelaris' player (who had already used magic to blow down a pillar on a Deep Horror -- and rolled well enough to still be standing) wanted to know if he could use his air-related magic to make sure Krek didn't miss by guiding the arrows to their target. That's the kind of creative magic and teamwork that got him a Style point -- though he never got to try it cause Krek's next arrow took out the Deep Horror sans magical enhancement.

Not a problem, buddy ol' pal. I was a bit iffy on that mechanic myself, but when it was confirmed I began to realize just how bad a hurting one could dish out with a lucky roll and the willingness to risk the Burn. Lucky rolls in general make magic really impressive, like the 7 success energy web our noble sorceress used to keep the monsters away from us during the con game I played in. From what I understand, it completely changed the way the encounter went down.

Still, it was the effects that have nothng to do with damage that drew me into the system. My players tend to be fairly creative in their responses to situations so I'm interested to see what they come up with when I start up a game.

Likewise here. I like magic to do more than simply be used as a weapon (D&D4e...), but have as much potential as the player wishes to inject.

Hullo, Matt,



This is one of the things that appeals to me about DESOLATION to begin with. The fact of the matter is that most fantasy rpgs make some allowance for players being both mages and fighters, although when it comes down to it, having both in a DESOLATION character would certainly be an advantage. That said, however, this is a world where people are afraid of magic and hate it to one degree or another (although there are exceptions). The key to remember is that the magic attack is actually quite powerful, since it uses the Spell Damage formula found in the second column of page 131. And that is the damage taken, after the target defends against it, if possible. So a magical attack by a character with a Base DIF of 2, a Primary Attribute of 4, and 3 extra successes (=9) requires the target of a physical damage spell with a Defense of 5 (who maxes out the dice roll) to still take 4 Lethal wounds. To me, that's more effective than a Melee attack of some sort.



While I agree with this in principle, I suspect that the players who are willing to take serious Burn are going to be cannons, whether one wants them to be or not. That said, they'll learn...



Exactly. Just some more reasons why I adore the magic system in DESOLATION.

Hullo, Nestor,



hehe You haven't thought about the possibility of his lighting the arrows with fire before he shoots at the target, have you? Or better yet, using an air spell of some sort to boost the range of the bow shot?



These two statements pretty much sum up the magic system for the game quite nicely. Free-form magic syystems always work best when they are defined by their versatility, and not by the power of what they can and cannot do. Not to mention, a clear understanding and definition of how and why magic works in a given game. (This was one of the flaws of the Arrowflight fantasy system from Deep7 in my opinion, although it had a lot of terrific stuff going for it in the setting, and could easily be adapted to Ubiquity fantasy.)



I would argue that the player should be able to target both the original mongrel, and light up the life of the second mongrel, as the DIF for the 2 targets is +1 (table page 134), and that's well within the purview of the increased number of successes. I would rule that it might depend on the distance between the two mongrels, but I might allow it anyway as it's a good story element. We'll see what the GMD boys (and Matt in particular) have to say on this point.



See above. One of my players has done just that, back in March, and it makes things...interesting. Mind you, if you do the character up, I'd love to see him.