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Dice Rolls as I understand them
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Author:  Mr Simon [ Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Dice Rolls as I understand them
I'm looking to develop an algorithm for dice rolling and want to make sure I have the rules correct. As I understand them, an action check would flow as follows:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DP - Dice Pool
MP - Momentum Pairs
SN - Successes Needed
TN - Target Number
TNoS - Total Number of Successes

1. Calculate Dice Pool (DP). This is typically Skill + Attribute.
_____a. The DP may be increased at a rate of 1/point of momentum spent, up to a max of linked Attribute.
2. Calculate the Successes Needed (SN). A success is counted as a die rolled over the Target Number (TN).
_____a. SN may be reduced at a rate of 1 /point of momentum spent.
3. DP is rolled.
4. Successes are calculated. Once again, a success is any die that rolls above the TN
5. Isolate and spend Momentum Pairs (MP). A MP is a pair of dice that add up to 13. Each MP may be spent in the following way:
_____a. Bank - a MP may be banked as a point of momentum, up to the character's max.
_____b. Reroll - a MP may be rerolled.
__________i. Each MP may generate at most a single success.
__________ii. The total pool of rerolled dice should be considered when looking for further MP.
_____c. Activate* - MP may be used immediate to activate a meridian instead of banking it for later.
6. Success the Total Number of Successes TNoS.
_____a. If TNoS < SN, the action fails.
__________i. If TNoS is 0 and each die is either a 1 or 2, the action is a critical failure.
__________ii. If TNoS > 0, the action is a partial success
_____b. If TNoS => SN, the action succeeds.
__________i. If TNoS => SN + 3, the action is an exceptional success.

*Only applies to rolls that involves a meridian power
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edit: Added legend of terms above rules.
Author:  Mr Simon [ Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dice Rolls as I understand them
Ok, now that I have the rules as I understand them up, I'd like to ask about the part of them I'm not entirely sure about.

Quote:
5.b.ii. The total pool of rerolled dice should be considered when looking for further MP.


Is this correct, or should each MP be considered individually when looking for further MP?
Author:  JohnK [ Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dice Rolls as I understand them
Hullo, Mr. Simon,

In my comments on your writing below, please take everything I say with a grain of salt. :)

Mr Simon wrote:
I'm looking to develop an algorithm for dice rolling and want to make sure I have the rules correct. As I understand them, an action check would flow as follows:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DP - Dice Pool
MP - Momentum Pairs
SN - Successes Needed
TN - Target Number
TNoS - Total Number of Successes

1. Calculate Dice Pool (DP). This is typically Skill + Attribute.
_____a. The DP may be increased at a rate of 1/point of momentum spent, up to a max of linked Attribute.


Umm, not quite correct. The dice pool is calculated based on the Attribute only, plus any modifiers applied by the GM and any Momentum points the player uses to do so.

Thus, if I have a skill that is based on the Mind Attribute, and I have a Mind of 5 dice, I roll that many dice for my dice pool. If I spend 1 point of Momentum to increase my dice pool, I would roll 6 dice.

Mr Simon wrote:
2. Calculate the Successes Needed (SN). A success is counted as a die rolled over the Target Number (TN).
_____a. SN may be reduced at a rate of 1 /point of momentum spent.


Umm, actually, one rolls the dice first. Step 3 should be here, not this one. :)

Not quite how I'd phrase it. The successes needed is actually the Difficulty of the task that the GM sets. Average Difficulty is 1, Challenging is 2, etc., and that's the number of successes needed, depending.

I also assume you mean here that the opponent is potentially spending a point of Momentum to cancel out a success that you have rolled. I can't recall seeing that in the book, but I think it's an obvious use of Momentum if a player or non-player character wants to do so.

Mr Simon wrote:
3. DP is rolled.


See my comment above.

Mr Simon wrote:
4. Successes are calculated. Once again, a success is any die that rolls above the TN


Not correct. A success is any die that rolls equal to or above the TN.

Mr Simon wrote:
5. Isolate and spend Momentum Pairs (MP). A MP is a pair of dice that add up to 13. Each MP may be spent in the following way:
_____a. Bank - a MP may be banked as a point of momentum, up to the character's max.
_____b. Reroll - a MP may be rerolled.
__________i. Each MP may generate at most a single success.
__________ii. The total pool of rerolled dice should be considered when looking for further MP.
_____c. Activate* - MP may be used immediate to activate a meridian instead of banking it for later.


The phrase that you use here, Momentum Pairs, is somewhat ugly. Basically, it's any two dice of the dice pool rolled that sum to 13, with the exception that no die in the pool can contribute to this sum more than once. Furthermore, referring to your phrasing here, you don't have to "isolate and spend". Ickky language. :)

Furthermore, the two dice that total 13 generate Momentum... The point of Momentum may be banked for future use (see a above), may be spent immediately to make a Momentum roll (see b above), but in the c case, it is either used to bank, roll Momentum again, or pay for activation of the Meridian abilities, depending on whether the character has successes on the Distance power roll.

Mr Simon wrote:
6. Success the Total Number of Successes TNoS.
_____a. If TNoS < SN, the action fails.
__________i. If TNoS is 0 and each die is either a 1 or 2, the action is a critical failure.
__________ii. If TNoS > 0, the action is a partial success
_____b. If TNoS => SN, the action succeeds.
__________i. If TNoS => SN + 3, the action is an exceptional success.


To all intents and purposes, no real argument with your notions here. The "SN" value is actually the Difficulty ("DIF"), not a Success Number, but that's just phrasing on your part.

Overall, other than the glitches I noted above, it just seems to me that the way you've set things up here overcomplicates the situation. Might be confusing to some folks.
Author:  JohnK [ Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dice Rolls as I understand them
Hullo, Mr. Simon,

Mr Simon wrote:
Ok, now that I have the rules as I understand them up, I'd like to ask about the part of them I'm not entirely sure about.

Quote:
5.b.ii. The total pool of rerolled dice should be considered when looking for further MP.


Is this correct, or should each MP be considered individually when looking for further MP?


Umm, the phrasing that you're using here is somewhat awkward.

As I noted in the previous reply, when looking to see if Momentum has been generated, it's any two dice of the dice pool rolled that sum to 13, with the exception that no die in the pool can contribute to this sum more than once.
Author:  Mr Simon [ Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dice Rolls as I understand them
Quote:
Quote:
1. Calculate Dice Pool (DP). This is typically Skill + Attribute.
_____a. The DP may be increased at a rate of 1/point of momentum spent, up to a max of linked Attribute.

Umm, not quite correct. The dice pool is calculated based on the Attribute only, plus any modifiers applied by the GM and any Momentum points the player uses to do so.

Thus, if I have a skill that is based on the Mind Attribute, and I have a Mind of 5 dice, I roll that many dice for my dice pool. If I spend 1 point of Momentum to increase my dice pool, I would roll 6 dice.

Apologies here. The skill is used to set the Target Number. As far as the Dice Pool modification, that's taken care of in 1.a. :)

Quote:
Quote:
2. Calculate the Successes Needed (SN). A success is counted as a die rolled over the Target Number (TN).
_____a. SN may be reduced at a rate of 1 /point of momentum spent.

Umm, actually, one rolls the dice first. Step 3 should be here, not this one. :)

I think you misunderstood me. I should have used Difficulty Rating instead of Successes Needed. That was bad form on my part. However, this target needs to be set before the dice roll. It wouldn't make too much sense to roll the dice and then have the DM say "looks like you only got 3 successes. I just decided now that you need 4."


Quote:
Quote:
4. Successes are calculated. Once again, a success is any die that rolls above the TN

Not correct. A success is any die that rolls equal to or above the TN.

Understood. Type on my part.


Quote:
Quote:
5. Isolate and spend Momentum Pairs (MP). A MP is a pair of dice that add up to 13. Each MP may be spent in the following way:
_____a. Bank - a MP may be banked as a point of momentum, up to the character's max.
_____b. Reroll - a MP may be rerolled.
__________i. Each MP may generate at most a single success.
__________ii. The total pool of rerolled dice should be considered when looking for further MP.
_____c. Activate* - MP may be used immediate to activate a meridian instead of banking it for later.

The phrase that you use here, Momentum Pairs, is somewhat ugly. Basically, it's any two dice of the dice pool rolled that sum to 13, with the exception that no die in the pool can contribute to this sum more than once. Furthermore, referring to your phrasing here, you don't have to "isolate and spend". Ickky language. :)

I understand that I have "icky language" here. However, it's the best way I can put it. You have to consider each pair of 13s individually. Per the book (page 83, if you're curious), each Momentum Roll (which is what "reroll" probably should have been called, since this is the book's terminology) can only generate a single success.

The question I had, and perhaps I phrased it poorly in my 2nd post, is this; can I consider all Momentum Rolls together when looking for further generated momentum, or is it only if a single set of Momentum Roll dice come up to 13 again that further momentum is generated?

I'm not planning to use these this as an explanation to people of how the dice are rolled. The book does that just fine. What I'm trying to do is create a set of rules so I can create a dice roller program...so yeah, it may appear that it's more complicated than it needs to be, but that's only because I'm attempting to consider all possible cases.
Author:  JohnK [ Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dice Rolls as I understand them
Hullo, Mr. Simon,

Mr Simon wrote:
Quote:
JohnK wrote:
1. Calculate Dice Pool (DP). This is typically Skill + Attribute.
_____a. The DP may be increased at a rate of 1/point of momentum spent, up to a max of linked Attribute.

Umm, not quite correct. The dice pool is calculated based on the Attribute only, plus any modifiers applied by the GM and any Momentum points the player uses to do so.

Thus, if I have a skill that is based on the Mind Attribute, and I have a Mind of 5 dice, I roll that many dice for my dice pool. If I spend 1 point of Momentum to increase my dice pool, I would roll 6 dice.


Apologies here. The skill is used to set the Target Number. As far as the Dice Pool modification, that's taken care of in 1.a. :)


To some degree, yes, but bear in mind that Qualities can modify the number of dice as well, as well as the player and GM agreeing on other Skills or character elements that might modify the number of dice as well.

Mr Simon wrote:
Quote:
JohnK wrote:

2. Calculate the Successes Needed (SN). A success is counted as a die rolled over the Target Number (TN).
_____a. SN may be reduced at a rate of 1 /point of momentum spent.

Umm, actually, one rolls the dice first. Step 3 should be here, not this one. :)

I think you misunderstood me. I should have used Difficulty Rating instead of Successes Needed. That was bad form on my part. However, this target needs to be set before the dice roll. It wouldn't make too much sense to roll the dice and then have the DM say "looks like you only got 3 successes. I just decided now that you need 4."


While that's certainly true, bear in mind the GM should always be setting the Difficulty of the task before the player rolls the dice, not afterwards, regardless of modifiers. However, the GM may not tell the player the Difficulty of the task in question before the dice are rolled. Aside from that, GMs aren't in the habit of changing the Difficulty after a player rolls the dice (except in the case of bad GMs).

Mr Simon wrote:
Quote:
JohnK wrote:
4. Successes are calculated. Once again, a success is any die that rolls above the TN

Not correct. A success is any die that rolls equal to or above the TN.

Understood. Type on my part.


:)

Mr Simon wrote:
Quote:
JohnK wrote:
5. Isolate and spend Momentum Pairs (MP). A MP is a pair of dice that add up to 13. Each MP may be spent in the following way:
_____a. Bank - a MP may be banked as a point of momentum, up to the character's max.
_____b. Reroll - a MP may be rerolled.
__________i. Each MP may generate at most a single success.
__________ii. The total pool of rerolled dice should be considered when looking for further MP.
_____c. Activate* - MP may be used immediate to activate a meridian instead of banking it for later.

The phrase that you use here, Momentum Pairs, is somewhat ugly. Basically, it's any two dice of the dice pool rolled that sum to 13, with the exception that no die in the pool can contribute to this sum more than once. Furthermore, referring to your phrasing here, you don't have to "isolate and spend". Ickky language. :)


I understand that I have "icky language" here. However, it's the best way I can put it. You have to consider each pair of 13s individually. Per the book (page 83, if you're curious), each Momentum Roll (which is what "reroll" probably should have been called, since this is the book's terminology) can only generate a single success.


I know what you were trying to get at, but the phrasing was just downright lousy about it. But how will the dice roller (since that's what I figured you're trying to work on here) deal with the idea of a roll of 9, 4, 6, 7, 9, 7? :)

Mr Simon wrote:
The question I had, and perhaps I phrased it poorly in my 2nd post, is this; can I consider all Momentum Rolls together when looking for further generated momentum, or is it only if a single set of Momentum Roll dice come up to 13 again that further momentum is generated?


If I understand the question correctly, a single roll of 5 or 6 dice could generate up to 3 points of Momentum rolls, thus leading to up to 3 additional Momentum rolls on the part of the player (assuming they needed the successes, and decided to re-roll all three). Does that help?

Mr Simon wrote:
I'm not planning to use these this as an explanation to people of how the dice are rolled. The book does that just fine. What I'm trying to do is create a set of rules so I can create a dice roller program...so yeah, it may appear that it's more complicated than it needs to be, but that's only because I'm attempting to consider all possible cases.


Oh, I figured from the original post that you were thinking of a dice roller program. That said, you need to think of this along the lines of a flowchart to break down the problem into different bits. At least, that's my opinion on this.

In any event, look forward to seeing the program when it's done. :)
Author:  Stephen [ Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dice Rolls as I understand them
Fascinating stuff! Keep us in the loop as to your efforts!
Author:  zpeterz63 [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dice Rolls as I understand them
Just wanted to let you all know that I'm still working on this. This semester is my big development and testing semester. I'll let you all know as more comes up.
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