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Magic Replicating Talents
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Author:  18Puppies [ Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Magic Replicating Talents
Hi everyone, I am new to the board (my first post) and am looking forward to interacting with people more knowledgeable than me on all matters Desolation. I have got all the (.pdf) books and am preparing to run our first Desolation game in our small but lively group. We have been running HEX for a short while so we are all familiar with Ubiquity (GREAT system!).

On page 132 of the Core Rules book, is this rather off-hand comment:
Quote:
As a general rule of thumb, a spell that replicates a Talent will have a Base Difficulty of three (Tough).
There seems to be no other mention of this in the Magic section and I am trying to get my head around this. Of course, one of my players immediately asked about replicating the "Burn Reduction" talent, making is last more than a scene, and then casting it again for multiple effects, meaning he would in effect never take Burn for a combat scene. I know this is wrong and will work out why soon...

My question is this: what guidelines other than "Base Difficulty 3" do you have for magically (and temporarily) gaining Talents? To me it would seem that gaining a Talent (equivalent to 15 exp. even if temporary) is a lot stronger of an effect than what is stated as a level 3 Difficulty Alter/Enchant Characters:
Quote:
Can affect self and others in a strong, but uncomplicated way. Spells can cause simple physical transformations, uncomplicated mental manipulations and moderate magical effects.
Is replicating a Talent more than "strong, but uncomplicated"? I would consider it at least a Base Difficulty of 4, especially in light of the magic example in Journeys of a guy trying to fly himself to a nearby rooftop, and that was given a Base Difficulty of 4... this is replicating a Talent after all. Maybe I am too harsh though.

I look forward to your thoughts and our further discussions.
Cheers,
Lorne "18Puppies" in Seoul, Korea
Author:  Nestor [ Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic Replicating Talents
Some initial thoughts, off the top of my head:

Remember, as the GM, you don't need to explain yourself. If you feel a concept or construct is unfeasible, unbalancing, or just plain unfun, you have the perfect right to nix it with no more of a reason than "because I said so." At least, that's my take on it. ;)

Also, the Difficulty settings given are somewhat squishy because the intent is more to give the GM guidelines for coming up with a number than ironclad settings that must be followed to the letter. If you feel that three is too small a number to assign to a Talent-replicating spell, by all means, increase it to something you feel more comfortable with.

I'll make a small confession: I am very situational when coming up with difficulties. I tend to base my judgment more on what's going on and how cool the effect would be than any specific elements of the spell. To me, the story trumps the rules, always. :)
Author:  18Puppies [ Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic Replicating Talents
Thanks for the reminder about GM Powerz... as I mentioned in another thread, this is my first time actually GM'ing a story in oh... 25 years! I was out of tabletop RPGs for a rather long time and have only been back as a player for a few years. I was not ever as comfortable with game rules and settings as the other people in our various groups because of my lack of experience. Starting up Desolation is great because none of us has any experience with it so I can't really screw anyone's previous or prior expectations.

How do you feel about magic replicating magic-based talents, like Burn Reduction, Burn Transfer, etc.? My first thought was that magic shouldn't be able to replicate magic in that way, at least not across the board. I mean you cannot replicate a Talent to acquire/replicate/access (even temporarily) another Tradition. As far as Burn Transfer goes, I could maybe see some Traditions being able to do it, maybe Necromancy with its "life" component, or Sorcery for its sheer raw access to the Weave... but not others.

I also, as myself, tend to wrap myself in a comforting blanket of organized charts delimiting what can and can't be done and with this free-form magic, that will clearly be a bit of a disadvantage. I suspect that I too will be rather situational when it comes to assigning difficulty, but I intend to keep notes on spells cast and try to maintain a certain consistency, if there is such to be found.

Any advice from experienced GMs of Desolation would be greatly and eagerly appreciated.
Cheers!
Author:  JohnK [ Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic Replicating Talents
Hullo, 18Puppies,

18Puppies wrote:
On page 132 of the Core Rules book, is this rather off-hand comment:
Quote:
As a general rule of thumb, a spell that replicates a Talent will have a Base Difficulty of three (Tough).
There seems to be no other mention of this in the Magic section and I am trying to get my head around this. Of course, one of my players immediately asked about replicating the "Burn Reduction" talent, making is last more than a scene, and then casting it again for multiple effects, meaning he would in effect never take Burn for a combat scene. I know this is wrong and will work out why soon...

My question is this: what guidelines other than "Base Difficulty 3" do you have for magically (and temporarily) gaining Talents? To me it would seem that gaining a Talent (equivalent to 15 exp. even if temporary) is a lot stronger of an effect than what is stated as a level 3 Difficulty


Great question and post, Lorne. :)

My own take on this is pretty simple. The Desolation rules, especially the mechanics on Magic, are there to serve as guidelines for the GM and the players alike. It's the GM who interprets the Magic rules and determines whether the spell that the player spellcaster wants to unleash is viable within his/her interpretation of the magic rules. Therefore, it's in your power as GM to say "No, I won't allow the magic system to duplicate that" or whatever. You don't need to explain yourself at all, though if the players want to talk to you about the ruling after the game's over for the session, that's fine.

When push comes to shove, I'm not inclined to allow players to duplicate Talents from the system using Magic. To me, that doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the Magic system for one thing, and for another, it's...a cheat of sorts. That said, certain Traditions of Magic do allow for the sort of duplication of Talents anyway, but that's a case-by-case scenario. However, in effect, the final decision of what to allow in this regard is up to you as GM.

Just my $0.02. Hope this helps. :)
Author:  JohnK [ Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic Replicating Talents
Hullo, Nestor,

Nestor wrote:

<snip>
I'll make a small confession: I am very situational when coming up with difficulties. I tend to base my judgment more on what's going on and how cool the effect would be than any specific elements of the spell. To me, the story trumps the rules, always. :)


I agree with pretty much everything that you said here, especially this last line. Desolation is very much a game system about telling a good story with the players, and the rules are easy enough to flick to the side to enhance the story under most circumstances.
Author:  JohnK [ Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic Replicating Talents
Hullo, 18Puppies,

18Puppies wrote:
How do you feel about magic replicating magic-based talents, like Burn Reduction, Burn Transfer, etc.? My first thought was that magic shouldn't be able to replicate magic in that way, at least not across the board. I mean you cannot replicate a Talent to acquire/replicate/access (even temporarily) another Tradition. As far as Burn Transfer goes, I could maybe see some Traditions being able to do it, maybe Necromancy with its "life" component, or Sorcery for its sheer raw access to the Weave... but not others.


To be honest, Lorne, this is not something that I would allow in my games of Desolation at all. Burn is the price that a spellcaster pays for the use of the Weave, especially now in the After. Allowing a player to cast a spell to allow Burn Reduction (for example), that may cause Burn in and of itself, seems to defeat the purposes.

Again, just my $0.02. :)
Author:  Nestor [ Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic Replicating Talents
I think JohnK has the gist of it. Using a spell to replicate a Talent would be, at best, highly dependent on the effect being sought. Personally, I would automatically disqualify Magic Talents as options. YMMV.
Author:  Nestor [ Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic Replicating Talents
JohnK wrote:
Hullo, Nestor,

Nestor wrote:

<snip>
I'll make a small confession: I am very situational when coming up with difficulties. I tend to base my judgment more on what's going on and how cool the effect would be than any specific elements of the spell. To me, the story trumps the rules, always. :)


I agree with pretty much everything that you said here, especially this last line. Desolation is very much a game system about telling a good story with the players, and the rules are easy enough to flick to the side to enhance the story under most circumstances.


Oh, I'm not disparaging the system in any way. I agree with your statement wholeheartedly. My comment was more an encouragement to not get bogged down with the number-crunching to the detriment of the action. :)
Author:  JohnK [ Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic Replicating Talents
Hullo, Nestor,

Nestor wrote:
I think JohnK has the gist of it. Using a spell to replicate a Talent would be, at best, highly dependent on the effect being sought. Personally, I would automatically disqualify Magic Talents as options. YMMV.


No argument here, mate. :)
Author:  JohnK [ Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic Replicating Talents
Hullo, Nestor,

Nestor wrote:
JohnK wrote:
Hullo, Nestor,

Nestor wrote:

<snip>
I'll make a small confession: I am very situational when coming up with difficulties. I tend to base my judgment more on what's going on and how cool the effect would be than any specific elements of the spell. To me, the story trumps the rules, always. :)


I agree with pretty much everything that you said here, especially this last line. Desolation is very much a game system about telling a good story with the players, and the rules are easy enough to flick to the side to enhance the story under most circumstances.


Oh, I'm not disparaging the system in any way. I agree with your statement wholeheartedly. My comment was more an encouragement to not get bogged down with the number-crunching to the detriment of the action. :)


I didn't think you were disparaging the system, mate. :) And I wholeheartedly agree with you that one should never let the game mechanics get in the way of actual play and roleplaying. 'Nuff said. :)
Author:  18Puppies [ Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic Replicating Talents
Thanks for those comments! I had already decided (mostly at least) that magic could not replicate magic talents as is seemed to me to be a bit circular reasoning. I'll go with that.
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