Hullo, folks,

Desolation is such a good, simple mechanics-based, post-apocalyptic fantasy roleplaying game, and yet, the game gets no respect in gaming circles, goes pretty much unnoticed out there in the market at large, and doesn't seem to attract all that many fans when it does get noticed.

Why is this?

Another interesting point to note. Here we are, several weeks after GenCon, and the folks from Greymalkin Designs did their best and sold plenty of books in the Desolation line of products at the convention, hyped and marketed the game, and ran plenty of demos. Yet we have not seen any people signing up for these forums since GenCon ended.

What is it about this game that doesn't attract gamers in general, let alone to the forums?

I cannot say anything about the American respectively English-speaking RPG community but I can confirm that I never met somebody in Germany who knew about Desolation (except for the ones who played it with me, of course). And that's not just because there is no German translation of the game. Many people in Germany play English RPGs (and also really unknown systems) but even on German internet forums there are very few people knowing about Desolation and discussing it. I try to push every forum topic I find about it, of course but this has not shown any notable effect yet.

With my group, it was somewhat hard to get a few people into it - and they are still waining. My best guess is, the masses want to play super heroes, so to speak. Personally, a few of my group and myself are glad that Desolation didn't take that route. The majority of my group seem to be into it just so they can play something (we've had a bit of a drought).

When I found this, I was looking for something kinda like Fallout, with a steam punk twist. I still debated for a while wether or not I should get some steam punk resources, but I was afraid to because the setting is so rich in Desolaion - I didn't want to water it at all. And maybe that could be it, most people want to play the races they have for years the way they know them. I love what was done with each race, but I imagine others aren't so happy with some things.

I'm not sure why this game is being looked over, as I have nothing to really compare it to. I've only played this and D&D, and I've fallen hard for this game. I wish I could help more.

Hullo, Gilgamesh,



I can't say that I'm surprised to learn that a lot of German rpgers play English rpgs, but would a German translation of the game make all that much difference to Desolation's presence there?

This is pretty much how I feel about RPG.net. I tend to post and hype the game in threads about post-apocalyptic rpgs as well as threads that directly discuss the game, but there is just no presence for Desolation on the web. Mind you, I never have any problems filling the game tables at the local gaming convention when I run it. Often have to turn players away, actually.

Hullo, Scrump,



Out of curiosity, why are some of the people in that gaming group having trouble with the game? What is it about it that they don't like?



One of the real joys about Desolation, and most rpgs for that matter, is that the player characters don't start off as super-heroes. That's what playing a long-term game is about, to see the normal, everyday type characters that one finds in rpgs develop, grow, and become the super-heroes. Lots of groups don't want to play long-term campaigns of individual games, seeming to prefer variety, but power - either through strength of arms or through political and social influence - are definitely things that player characters in Desolation can aspire to. I, too, am glad that the game doesn't start off with the super-hero mentality and all.



One of the common themes about Desolation in the various threads on RPG.net is that the setting is bland, or that it's too generic, that there's not enough background to the game world, or that the game has no special "oomph!" to it. Needless to say, I completely disagree with this assessment. For me, one of the big appeals of the game is that it is set 18 *months* after the Night of Fire, not 1,000 years or so, and therefore the game gets back to the roots of post-apocalyptic matters - survival. The fact that the world in the After is loosely defined per se means that I can play with it, make of it what I will (and what my players want), and add interesting stuff to the game world.



No worries, mate. Just trying to get an understanding of it all, you know?

I think it would. Not primarily because of people who don't like reading English books (yes, they exist but I think they are a minority) but because this would mean that there is a German publisher of the translation who can send out supporters throughout the country on several conventions. So I wouldn't be the only one running Desolation games at German cons.
Maybe I should found a publishing company and translate the game.

The one that realy comes to mind isn't getting into the game primariy because he likes the way Pathfinder did things. He is a fan of the class system and what not. While I think Pathfinder improved greatly on D&D 3.5, I personally think that it is too high fantasy.

As far as people not signing up on the forums, it might be as simple as they don't know about it, strange as that sounds these days. The only reason I found it was because I came to the website trying to find more information before I bought the game.

I know the company is somewhat poor, but maybe if Greymalkin put out some posters or something for hobby shops, sales might pick up. I talked to an owner of one near me the other day and he'd heard of the game, but said he overlooked it. I didn't have a lot of time to beat him over the head with the game, so I gave him a kinda quick rundown. Hopefully he looks into it. I've even thought about running pick up games at local hobby shops to increase the player base. It's a shame so little know of this game - I've only seen one copy of each book in Portland, OR. I haven't been to every shop, but it doesn't look good.

It's hard pulling people from something they've always known, you could even say they are afraid of the unknown. And it seems as though some GMs might be afraid of the freedom the game allows, when they say it doesn't give enough background. But with a stiff nudge, people might follow.

I haven't found anyone running away from the game at all. Quite the contrary, my friends enjoy the Ubiquity system because it is rather easy to use and flexible, and Desolation because it is a different take on fantasy.

Personally, I had enough of the "most popular system in the world" more than 2 decades ago and I enjoy working with new systems that are well supported, easy to use, versatile, and allow me to have fun rather than stop the game every couple of minutes to look up rules or argue over whether or not a character can do something just because he has achieved a certain level in a particular class.

It may be that a good many of us that do play this game do so on line by email or on small RPG forums, and not all that much at cons or local game stores. Most all of my gaming is PbP or PBeM these days, so unless I say something about it no one really knows I'm playing it.

There are a lot of independent companies out there and I have found a few good games that have gotten lost in the shuffle - Desolation among them.

Hullo, Gilgamesh,



Ah, so it's really about other folks running Desolation at German conventions so *you* can play in them!

In all seriousness, I suppose that if there was a market for the game in Germany, and the folks at Greymalkin Designs wanted to do so, they could do worse than publish a version of the game in German. A French version of the game wouldn't be a bad thing, either, if it meant gaining more exposure for our favourite post-apocalyptic fantasy rpg.



Another option, certainly...but an expensive one.

Hullo, Scrump,



Frankly, high fantasy rpgs are fun to play to a certain extent, but I prefer games that are more along the gritty, pulp fantasy lines of the fiction of the 1930s through 1960s, myself. In terms of high fantasy, been there, ran that, didn't get the t-shirt. There is, of course, the option of running Desolation in the Before, which was a very high fantasy time period.

As far as the Class system goes, it had it's day, but from a character concept point of view, it doesn't really offer characters all that much freedom of imagination and expression. Unless you have a Class for *everything*. That said, the Archetypes found in Desolation are a form of Class, I suppose, so perhaps taking it from that pov would be a good idea.



You're right about knowledge about the game not being out there. I do my share of hyping the game at game stores, comic shoppes that carry rpgs (my comic shoppe now carries the game because of this, and the fact that I ran demos of the game), my blog, and places like RPG.net, but it is tough to get the word out there. Mind you, I never seem to have problems filling the table with gamers when I run it at CanGames, the local game convention here in Ottawa, and the demo games are usually pretty full, too.



I suspect that you're partially right about this, too. People at local conventions, as an example, seem to want to play stuff in their comfort zone, rather than using the convention's offerings to try out new game systems. Gamers are afraid of the unknown, at least when it comes to rpgs they don't know, it seems. Sad, but true. Like I said, however, I do my best to spread the word about the game at conventions.

Hullo, cdwjava,



While certainly a different spin on fantasy or a different spin on post-apocalyptic stuff, depending on your pov, Desolation is enhanced by the Ubiquity system, which provides one of the easiest, most flexible gaming systems out there today. That's the real strength of the game, although some find that the supposed lack of background and world material in the books to be a negative element of the game.



No argument here. I broke away from the Class system games back in 1979, when I got involved with the old DRAGONQUEST fantasy rpg from SPI. Haven't looked back since. I prefer the character concept flexibility offered by Class-less rpg systems.



PBeM or PbP is not the same as tabletop rpging, of course, but I guess whatever gaming one can get in is good, eh?



This is certainly true, but I have to say that I see more discussion of the Desolation game and other elements of the game on the Ubiquity parent forums over at Exile Games at times than here. I guess, like you said, that Desolation is just one of those indie rpgs that gets lost in the shuffle. Sad but true.

#1 marketing - if people don't know and demos are not run it just doesn't spread. (youtube videos would be handy, reviews, actual plays etc)
#2 going against the 800lbs - You have D&D, Pathfinder and Warhammer already out there. Its hard to play in that field unless your an RPG.net darling.
#3 dice pools - If you take out your WOD and Shadowrun players there is a considerable amount of the gamers who are left who don't like dice pools
#4 fan conversions - Savage Worlds took off because someone made a Star Wars, Sla Industries, etc, etc conversion
#5 d20 conversion doc - Say what you will about d20 but having a doc where you can take a Monster Manual creature and quickly have a Desolation creature gives people a reason to switch
#6 new system - Ubiquity is fairly new and has not had a 2nd edition etc yet so its just not as well known. Most games peak with 2e in terms of number of players.

Interesting points.

#1. Demos are being run. Whenever I've seen one, people walked away with positive feelings about the game. The problem with marketing is balancing the cost/benefit between spending resources (both financial and human) vs. how much exposure that is obtained. The more more money you use on advertising, the less there is to actually create product.

#2. This one is the big one. It's hard to compete with large companies that can spend beacoup bucks to shove their products in people's faces. As for RPG.net, I personally don't give it that much credit. Using it to gauge a game's popularity is like basing one's political views from reading People.

#3. And there are gamers out there that don't like rolling a single d20. I personally don't think much of Fudge dice. Each dice roll system has its fans and haters. That's hardly a significant distinction. And I'm curious as to what statistics you're using to support your statement of a "considerable amount."

#4. Savage Worlds is a system built for being used in different genres, so using fan conversions as a basis for comparison is not fair.

#5. I disagree. There is no creature type in the Monster Manual that a) isn't already available in the Desolation bestiary, b) can't be easily derived from what's there, or c) is actually applicable or suitable for use in the game. Using D&D as a base setting (as opposed to game system) may have been acceptable back when there weren't that many to choose from, but the industry has grown beyond that.

#6. I think you're reversing cause and effect. Games don't become popular because they have been revised. They get revised once they become popular. BTW, there are three separate RPGs using Ubiquity, and its flagship product, Hollow Earth Expedition, has been translated to both French and German. That's not bad considering the system's only four years old.

My $.02...

I live in an area where you can pretty much pick your day/time/game you want to play (Seattle). There are soo many gamers here that we have more than a dozen FLGS within a hour drive. Yet Ubiquity games don't do as well as they should. GURPS I would say also gets the shaft in this area (for whatever reason). Hot items are Fate and Polaris, D&D, Pathfinder, Warhammer Fantasy, Shadowrun, Savage Worlds, WOD, Exalted, Hero, Call of Cthuhlu, Trail of Cthuhlu, and a bunch of small press stuff I'm forgetting. HEX did ok, but Desolation hardly anyone has heard of or wants to even try. It does ok in the Shadowrun/WOD crowed but outside of that group you cant really get anyone to bite. Its generated minimal to 0 interest in the Fantasy or Indie crowd. The couple demo games I have seen it was hard to get 2 players to sit down at the table (perhaps because it has to compete with everything else). Savage Worlds really took off around here after the d20 conversion doc came out. The answer is it really needs marketing because right now people aren't biting in this area. An official d20 conversion doc could help that marketing. As to the "people who don't like dice pools" for people around here who like dice pools they probably have a WOD, Shadowrun, or Exalted game. When you ask around to people who don't play at leased one of those systems you usually get one of two answers "I only play D&D" or "I don't like dice pools"... just personal experience. For #6 yeah I realize that I didnt mean to imply build it and they will come, just that numbers are low until you can justify making a 2e.

Okay, although I will say your population sample is pretty limited geographically, so I'm not sure how reliable your anecdotal evidence would be.

I will say I have no problem with dice pools and I've never touched WoD or Exalted and barely dabbled with Shadowrun (basically sat in on three sessions run by someone else). I've also run HEX demos plenty of times and have never heard any complaints about the system using them.

I just don't see a d20 conversion guide being all that useful, and this is coming from someone who's done that sort of thing. Specifically, I worked on converting a couple of Adamant's Thrilling Tales adventures from d20 Modern to HEX for my own use, and converted the first four Daring Tales of Adventure books from Savage Worlds to Ubiquity for Triple Ace Games.

The level of complexity that d20 has is such that converting becomes more of a "sit back, look at the concept then write up a Ubiquity character that matches it." There's precious little if any actual stat-to-stat translation.